Heim Steering

madtaco461

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This is how the first gen guys did it. Based off an old race truck from desert rangers. Crazy amount of work. Arms look long enough so bump steer shouldn't be that bad. I'd try to swing at a 30* angle from horizontal if it helps bump steer more.

Screenshot_20181214-104908.pngScreenshot_20181214-104751.png
 

Hank

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This is how the first gen guys did it. Based off an old race truck from desert rangers. Crazy amount of work. Arms look long enough so bump steer shouldn't be that bad. I'd try to swing at a 30* angle from horizontal if it helps bump steer more.

View attachment 2366View attachment 2367

SO much damn work. I'm going to quit rock crawling and go join the overlanders.
 

AssBurns

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This is how the first gen guys did it. Based off an old race truck from desert rangers. Crazy amount of work. Arms look long enough so bump steer shouldn't be that bad. I'd try to swing at a 30* angle from horizontal if it helps bump steer more.

View attachment 2366View attachment 2367
Is that a 5 lug truck? Looks different than mine.

Seems legit. Hydro assist would be badass! How is the steering column routed? I see something about a V-drive?
 

madtaco461

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Is that a 5 lug truck? Looks different than mine.

Seems legit. Hydro assist would be badass! How is the steering column routed? I see something about a V-drive?

This is a first gen tundra. Same concept because we are rear steer. The steering box is under the cab and has a 90* miter box to mate to your steering column. Looks like it would get in the way of a front drive shaft with 4wd. Only seen it on prerunners so far.

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AssBurns

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This is a first gen tundra. Same concept because we are rear steer. The steering box is under the cab and has a 90* miter box to mate to your steering column. Looks like it would get in the way of a front drive shaft with 4wd. Only seen it on prerunners so far.

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Okay that makes sense then. Yeah with 4wd, it could be a packaging issue.
 

Blender

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Didn't notice it the first time through but they're using an outer tre with a heimed inner. Didn't think that was common or am I outta the loop? Allowing unmodified LBJ on 1G Tundra and 1G tacos would be nice though.

could @Plastics Guy mold a replacement boot that meets up with the clevis adapter? CAD work looks straightforward, dunno how his molding capabilities are in terms of long hollow components. Probably need to machine a groove on the clevis adapter for the seat to clamp.
 

AssBurns

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Didn't notice it the first time through but they're using an outer tre with a heimed inner. Didn't think that was common or am I outta the loop? Allowing unmodified LBJ on 1G Tundra and 1G tacos would be nice though.

could @Plastics Guy mold a replacement boot that meets up with the clevis adapter? CAD work looks straightforward, dunno how his molding capabilities are in terms of long hollow components. Probably need to machine a groove on the clevis adapter for the seat to clamp.
I think it just depends on the kit. I’d like to make it heims on both ends but need to make sure it won’t lead to increased bump steer. I think I’ll make the steering attach at the spindle instead of the LBJ so I don’t have to modify LBJ’s every time they need to be replaced. Keep it auto parts store friendly. Depends exactly how I can make it work while still not being in the way of stock parts.
 

Arcticelf

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I think it just depends on the kit. I’d like to make it heims on both ends but need to make sure it won’t lead to increased bump steer. I think I’ll make the steering attach at the spindle instead of the LBJ so I don’t have to modify LBJ’s every time they need to be replaced. Keep it auto parts store friendly. Depends exactly how I can make it work while still not being in the way of stock parts.

I'm running the Solo Tundra Rack and Heim joint Tie Rod (joints on both ends) with a Mid-Travel set up. There's definitely bump steer issues with this setup, and I had to fab a new steering pickup for the spindle to fix it. I think I'm the first person to do this, since they usually sell the tie rod upgrade as part of an LT kit. Because of the wider track I don't think this is as much an issue for the LT rigs.

I'm glad I did the upgrade, but it's definitely not a bolt-on for a stock-width truck.
 

Coot83

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I'm running the Solo Tundra Rack and Heim joint Tie Rod (joints on both ends) with a Mid-Travel set up. There's definitely bump steer issues with this setup, and I had to fab a new steering pickup for the spindle to fix it. I think I'm the first person to do this, since they usually sell the tie rod upgrade as part of an LT kit. Because of the wider track I don't think this is as much an issue for the LT rigs.

I'm glad I did the upgrade, but it's definitely not a bolt-on for a stock-width truck.
Def jelly at that upgrade man...curious is that an all weekend job? My hope next year is to get the solo upgraded steering rack and then probably go heim as well.
 

Arcticelf

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Def jelly at that upgrade man...curious is that an all weekend job? My hope next year is to get the solo upgraded steering rack and then probably go heim as well.

It would be a very full weekend, but possible.

You have to install the rack, the tie rods, cycle everything to get the bump steer sorted, then weld up the spindles.

Just the rack swap is a 10 hour job, I'd plan two weekends, and just deal with the bump steer for a week, it's not too bad to live with if you're not in the highway.

ETA: you're already long travel, so the spindle upgrade might not be required. You'll have to cycle and see. You'll love the rack and tie rods.
 

Coot83

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It would be a very full weekend, but possible.

You have to install the rack, the tie rods, cycle everything to get the bump steer sorted, then weld up the spindles.

Just the rack swap is a 10 hour job, I'd plan two weekends, and just deal with the bump steer for a week, it's not too bad to live with if you're not in the highway.

ETA: you're already long travel, so the spindle upgrade might not be required. You'll have to cycle and see. You'll love the rack and tie rods.
Are you saying that I would need to modify my spindles at the bottom? I also have spindle gussets and not sure if those would have to be nodded as well. Def sounds like a serious job though.
 
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This issue has been bugging me for a while now. On our second rack, and it’s going to need replaced soon as well. No issues with tre’s, just wearing out the rack.
The solo and marlin options are both iffy for being a quality upgrade. Had me looking into swing steering, old school idler arm steering, but I’ve mostly been digging into the Howe racks as well as the sweet racks as well since they have so many options. (Looked at fortins as well but they are a pretty big package to fit).
Lots of race application use and pure Offroad use, but can’t find mush of anyone using them ON road. Keeping the truck a road vehicle is ideal as I hate when places build rigs and they have to trailer it everywhere because it can’t handle the road. (Meaning street purposed rigs, like a jku, Tacoma, etc etc. ).
 
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To elaborate. A rack is easiest to package with 4wd and the small confines. Moderately easy to get packaged to correct length rams/rods to minimize bumpsteer as much as possible. Servo allows for customizing road feel/ feedback in the wheel.
The box setup is harder to fit, by a lot. However an assist ram would really smooth things out and if you take the time to do right you could really eliminate a lot of bump steer by having swings match arc of outer tre’s and keep things a bit better in line (why I questioned marlins kit, yeah moving forward is great to get out of firewall and the increased leverage makes it ‘feel’ easier to steer, but fucks off all the scrub, Ackerman, etc ) but again packaging is an issue.
But what about mixing the two, ish. Using a slider rack, and attaching it to a center link on a swing setup. Easy packaging of no box or pitman or rerouting steering shaft, but the benefits of a swing set up. If room allowed you ‘could’ add an assist ram to the center link and have an upgraded rack with assist.
Just tossing out the basics of all the math and sketches I’ve been doing to see if anyone has an insight to tell me to quit wasting my time and toss another stock rack in.
 

Arcticelf

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Are you saying that I would need to modify my spindles at the bottom? I also have spindle gussets and not sure if those would have to be nodded as well. Def sounds like a serious job though.
Since you are LT you probably don't have to do anything to the spindle to make it work. I had to add plates and extend the steering pickup point forward and up (my hiem joint is entirely in front of the stock attachment point) to make the bump steer work.
 

Arcticelf

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This issue has been bugging me for a while now. On our second rack, and it’s going to need replaced soon as well. No issues with tre’s, just wearing out the rack.
The solo and marlin options are both iffy for being a quality upgrade. Had me looking into swing steering, old school idler arm steering, but I’ve mostly been digging into the Howe racks as well as the sweet racks as well since they have so many options. (Looked at fortins as well but they are a pretty big package to fit).
Lots of race application use and pure Offroad use, but can’t find mush of anyone using them ON road. Keeping the truck a road vehicle is ideal as I hate when places build rigs and they have to trailer it everywhere because it can’t handle the road. (Meaning street purposed rigs, like a jku, Tacoma, etc etc. ).

Tie rods are only and issue if you hit shit hard enough to bend them, otherwise they don't tend to fail.

The problem with Howe and similar is there is no physical linkage from the steering wheel to the rack, so if you lose hydraulic pressure you lose steering, hence not DOT legal, and dubiously safe on road.

Quality issues with the Marlin are TBD I suppose, but the solo rack is a tundra rack, and suffers the same issues. It is a shitload better than OE though.
 

Arcticelf

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To elaborate. A rack is easiest to package with 4wd and the small confines. Moderately easy to get packaged to correct length rams/rods to minimize bumpsteer as much as possible. Servo allows for customizing road feel/ feedback in the wheel.
The box setup is harder to fit, by a lot. However an assist ram would really smooth things out and if you take the time to do right you could really eliminate a lot of bump steer by having swings match arc of outer tre’s and keep things a bit better in line (why I questioned marlins kit, yeah moving forward is great to get out of firewall and the increased leverage makes it ‘feel’ easier to steer, but fucks off all the scrub, Ackerman, etc ) but again packaging is an issue.
But what about mixing the two, ish. Using a slider rack, and attaching it to a center link on a swing setup. Easy packaging of no box or pitman or rerouting steering shaft, but the benefits of a swing set up. If room allowed you ‘could’ add an assist ram to the center link and have an upgraded rack with assist.
Just tossing out the basics of all the math and sketches I’ve been doing to see if anyone has an insight to tell me to quit wasting my time and toss another stock rack in.

A box setup is probably the best option, although it's going to be hard to fit. Getting the ackerman, bump steer, and scrub right is going to be a bitch more or less any way you go; unless you have good CAD skills and a detailed model of the truck.

I think it's worth doing, especially if you're killing racks.
 
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Tie rods are only and issue if you hit shit hard enough to bend them, otherwise they don't tend to fail.

The problem with Howe and similar is there is no physical linkage from the steering wheel to the rack, so if you lose hydraulic pressure you lose steering, hence not DOT legal, and dubiously safe on road.

Quality issues with the Marlin are TBD I suppose, but the solo rack is a tundra rack, and suffers the same issues. It is a shitload better than OE though.
Yeah I was meaning the socket on the joints is still fine on factory steering, no wear to be felt, but the damn rack has gotten super loose twice now, seems pretty lame the rack is that weak.
Yeah I’ve done the full hydro thing on the road with a different build. Wasn’t terrible as it was set up well with a return to center orbital and all. Could cruise 65-70 no issues. As far as legal iirc it’s actually a per state/location thing if you really dig down into it. (Lots of old discussions on pirate and such). I’ve even driven a few commercial that were full hydro (winch truck for rig move ).
It isn’t the ideal situation as bump steer on one of those is potentially going to be a pain, but would have to see. Just discussing if anyone has looked into or done those options as I haven’t found much info digging on the inter webs.
 

Arcticelf

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Yeah I was meaning the socket on the joints is still fine on factory steering, no wear to be felt, but the damn rack has gotten super loose twice now, seems pretty lame the rack is that weak.
Yeah I’ve done the full hydro thing on the road with a different build. Wasn’t terrible as it was set up well with a return to center orbital and all. Could cruise 65-70 no issues. As far as legal iirc it’s actually a per state/location thing if you really dig down into it. (Lots of old discussions on pirate and such). I’ve even driven a few commercial that were full hydro (winch truck for rig move ).
It isn’t the ideal situation as bump steer on one of those is potentially going to be a pain, but would have to see. Just discussing if anyone has looked into or done those options as I haven’t found much info digging on the inter webs.

If I blow up my current setup I'll probably do a Howe setup, I think the legality issue is for manufacture/commercial sale. I doubt many, if any, places explicitly require it. It would be a detailed inspection to find it anyway.

Take a look at my build for the bump steer solution, you'll have to make a new pickup point for the outer tie rod on the spindle, which isn't that big a deal, assuming you can weld on a cast part.
 

AssBurns

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This issue has been bugging me for a while now. On our second rack, and it’s going to need replaced soon as well. No issues with tre’s, just wearing out the rack.
The solo and marlin options are both iffy for being a quality upgrade. Had me looking into swing steering, old school idler arm steering, but I’ve mostly been digging into the Howe racks as well as the sweet racks as well since they have so many options. (Looked at fortins as well but they are a pretty big package to fit).
Lots of race application use and pure Offroad use, but can’t find mush of anyone using them ON road. Keeping the truck a road vehicle is ideal as I hate when places build rigs and they have to trailer it everywhere because it can’t handle the road. (Meaning street purposed rigs, like a jku, Tacoma, etc etc. ).
To elaborate. A rack is easiest to package with 4wd and the small confines. Moderately easy to get packaged to correct length rams/rods to minimize bumpsteer as much as possible. Servo allows for customizing road feel/ feedback in the wheel.
The box setup is harder to fit, by a lot. However an assist ram would really smooth things out and if you take the time to do right you could really eliminate a lot of bump steer by having swings match arc of outer tre’s and keep things a bit better in line (why I questioned marlins kit, yeah moving forward is great to get out of firewall and the increased leverage makes it ‘feel’ easier to steer, but fucks off all the scrub, Ackerman, etc ) but again packaging is an issue.
But what about mixing the two, ish. Using a slider rack, and attaching it to a center link on a swing setup. Easy packaging of no box or pitman or rerouting steering shaft, but the benefits of a swing set up. If room allowed you ‘could’ add an assist ram to the center link and have an upgraded rack with assist.
Just tossing out the basics of all the math and sketches I’ve been doing to see if anyone has an insight to tell me to quit wasting my time and toss another stock rack in.
I don't know a whole lot about these upgraded racks, but I also want to look into something stronger once I increase tire size. I've already gone through a few racks, and I know larger tires will only make it worse.
On the Howe racks, is it full hydro with the servo built in, or is it actually a rack and pinion with hydro assist? I can't really tell. Sounds really expensive too.
Those Sweet racks look like there is some potential in there. Are they supposed to be pretty strong? I can't really tell the differences between them. All I could tell was width and travel (at least that's what I'm assuming the measurements are). I'd like to look more into these. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to fab up some bracket to mount those.

That last idea of using a slider rack and swing setup could be an idea too. Less packaging space than a steering box. especially for you guys with the rack between the crossmembers up front. Mine is behind the crossmember, so I could potentially make room for a steering box. Would be fairly easy to add hydro assist down the line (which is probably what we really need when playing in the rocks).

Moving the rack doesn't effect scrub radius at all. Scrub radius is measured through the upper and lower ball joints and its relation to the tire contact patch. Unless you are talking about scrub in another term that I don't know of. It can mess up the ackerman a little, but bump steer is the big one.
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