CV Axle Discussion Thread

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I still haven't had a chance to install mine.



Hw4nF5s.jpg



Here's a NAPA to compare the RCV's against

rhvy9Aw.jpg



I took a few numbers and the RCV's are an inch longer then the NAPA's. I broke my OEM's a long time ago so I can't compare that against OEM length. I know @AssBurns has inquired about the difference in CV length. Longer is better for lifted rigs. The big question I have. which I won't know until install, is one inch too much?
I think one of the joints has to be able to slide to compensate for travel and changes in alignment. When you install them the slip joint will likely slide in 1inch. I also don't see how lift would matter. "Lift" is just a bro word and lifting a IFS vehicle at the suspension doesn't change the travel, it just changes where it sits in the travel range relative to stock. A lifted vehicle still has the same compressed CV length as a non lifted vehicle when the CV shaft is parallel to the ground.
 
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For shits and giggles here's a photo of my OEM inner with the boots off and my alignment cams maxed out all the way. The tripod bearings actually stick out of the cup a little even with the CV shaft parallel to the ground. (photos are at full bump)
IMG_20180611_170819.jpgIMG_20180611_170816.jpg
 

theesotericone

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I think one of the joints has to be able to slide to compensate for travel and changes in alignment. When you install them the slip joint will likely slide in 1inch. I also don't see how lift would matter. "Lift" is just a bro word and lifting a IFS vehicle at the suspension doesn't change the travel, it just changes where it sits in the travel range relative to stock. A lifted vehicle still has the same compressed CV length as a non lifted vehicle when the CV shaft is parallel to the ground.


Lift is actually lift. There's nothing bro about it.

What it really is is Pythagorean Theorem.

When "lifting" you push the suspension up. That changes the angle of the hypotenuse. IE, the higher you "lift" the longer the CV needs to be. The discussion has been had more then a few times. I won't really know if RCV has the hypotenuse correct until I install and run them. But in reality, lift would absolutely matter.
 

eimkeith

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For shits and giggles here's a photo of my OEM inner with the boots off and my alignment cams maxed out all the way. The tripod bearings actually stick out of the cup a little even with the CV shaft parallel to the ground. (photos are at full bump)
View attachment 1541View attachment 1542

Wow. It’s a wonder that these things don’t fail with more regularity. That has to be the weakest part of the cup.
 

Theblackflag

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Lift is actually lift. There's nothing bro about it.

What it really is is Pythagorean Theorem.

When "lifting" you push the suspension up. That changes the angle of the hypotenuse. IE, the higher you "lift" the longer the CV needs to be. The discussion has been had more then a few times. I won't really know if RCV has the hypotenuse correct until I install and run them. But in reality, lift would absolutely matter.

Lots of flawed geometry there. You aren't taking into account that the arm moves in a circular arc as it travels, so both the horizontal and vertical legs of your triangle are changing at an equal rate which keeps your hypotenuse equal through the arc of travel. Lifting an ifs vehicle has no effect on your cv length, it simply changes where in the arc your ride height is at. That's why a lot of guys run 1 inch spacers in the front and none in the back, because as you lift the truck the arms pull the spindle inwards decreasing your track width and the spacers correct that. In the case of the lower arms and where they place the spindle, that dimension is your hypotenuse. Last I checked the lower control arm doesn't have a slip joint to make it longer as it travels downwards or upwards. The purpose of that inner slip joint is to allow the axle shaft to angle while remaining at a constant velocity rather than how u joints develop a bind and somewhat elliptical rotation as it angles further. Hence the term Constant Velocity Joint. The reason those RCV shafts are longer is so that the inner tripod joint will sit fully into the cup preventing the scenario in @Tetten's picture

Wow. It’s a wonder that these things don’t fail with more regularity. That has to be the weakest part of the cup.
Its usually not an issue because the outer Rzeppa joint cage is much weaker. That's why the lotus axles leave the inner joint stock. Glenn, the owner of lotus, designed those shafts to be stronger than stock but not so strong that they guarantee the inner stub shaft to be the new failure point. He still wanted an easily replaceable "fuse" in the driveline. Obviously, that isn't the case all the time seeing as we have seen the stub fail with lotus axles and even stock axles. There are just too many factors at play there for it to work out 100% of the time
 
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Theblackflag

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"The axles feature a double-offset inboard CV joint that is comprised by .8415" balls and 300M internal components. The outboard CVs utilize a combination of 4340 & 300M components optimized for maximum strength. The center bar is 30 spline 4340."

Pulled directly from the RCV website. And after some googling looks like they have switched the inner joint to a variation of the Rzeppa joint. Click the image to make it full screen
1541008208698.png
 

Blender

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"The axles feature a double-offset inboard CV joint that is comprised by .8415" balls and 300M internal components. The outboard CVs utilize a combination of 4340 & 300M components optimized for maximum strength. The center bar is 30 spline 4340."

Pulled directly from the RCV website. And after some googling looks like they have switched the inner joint to a variation of the Rzeppa joint
View attachment 1547View attachment 1547
View attachment 1547

Ah, reading... shoulda done that. For my application then the hard part should be done already
 

theesotericone

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Yep. It's a double offset.

I just got off the phone with RCV. I ended up taking a day off work so I'll have them installed today. They have machined the dust shield into the housing so there's no need for a dust shield. I verified that with them just now.

We also got to talking about the next weak link if IFS rigs. The stub shaft. They are willing to make chromoly shafts for our rigs. The rep I spoke to said they might have already done it in the past. He just needs the shaft and then they can go through the data base. If/when I break my stub shaft I will get them to make a stronger one. I know some other guys that would be interested as well so hopefully we can make it worth it fot them to produce a batch.
 

Theblackflag

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Yep. It's a double offset.

I just got off the phone with RCV. I ended up taking a day off work so I'll have them installed today. They have machined the dust shield into the housing so there's no need for a dust shield. I verified that with them just now.

We also got to talking about the next weak link if IFS rigs. The stub shaft. They are willing to make chromoly shafts for our rigs. The rep I spoke to said they might have already done it in the past. He just needs the shaft and then they can go through the data base. If/when I break my stub shaft I will get them to make a stronger one. I know some other guys that would be interested as well so hopefully we can make it worth it fot them to produce a batch.

I have an intact stock stub shaft laying in my parts box that I could send to them if we wanted to get the ball moving on the HD stub shaft project sooner.

Assuming its reasonably priced, so at least sub 700 I would definitely be interested in one of the HD stub shafts. If that was an option then I could see justifying the money on a set of RCV front axles. Right now it's just out of the question because to me its stupid to beef the axles up to a near unbreakable level and just move the weak link further inboard to where you can't really fix it on the trail.
 

AssBurns

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I still haven't had a chance to install mine.



Hw4nF5s.jpg



Here's a NAPA to compare the RCV's against

rhvy9Aw.jpg



I took a few numbers and the RCV's are an inch longer then the NAPA's. I broke my OEM's a long time ago so I can't compare that against OEM length. I know @AssBurns has inquired about the difference in CV length. Longer is better for lifted rigs. The big question I have. which I won't know until install, is one inch too much?
Like others have said before, the CV axle may not actually be any longer than stock. The RCV's could be not fully plunged while the NAPA axle could be fully plunged. Hard to really compare numbers there unless you measure fully plunged and fully extended lengths.
I do however think that the stock suspension geometry might have some plunge throughout suspension cycle. I've broken a bunch of inners and I think that it was due to the lack of plunge at full droop, along with the tripod joint at an extreme angle causing the roller bearing to come out of the inner cup. (At least that's my theory as to why the inner CV's keep breaking) Maybe another 1/2" or so will keep the inner CV plunged enough for more droop?

For shits and giggles here's a photo of my OEM inner with the boots off and my alignment cams maxed out all the way. The tripod bearings actually stick out of the cup a little even with the CV shaft parallel to the ground. (photos are at full bump)
View attachment 1541View attachment 1542
Damn! That's almost all the way out. I'm sure it would rip itself out of the inner cup.
 

theesotericone

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I have an intact stock stub shaft laying in my parts box that I could send to them if we wanted to get the ball moving on the HD stub shaft project sooner.

Assuming its reasonably priced, so at least sub 700 I would definitely be interested in one of the HD stub shafts. If that was an option then I could see justifying the money on a set of RCV front axles. Right now it's just out of the question because to me its stupid to beef the axles up to a near unbreakable level and just move the weak link further inboard to where you can't really fix it on the trail.

For a long time I held the same weak link belief. I never much cared for the Lotus axles because I have broken inner joints. Once RCV became an option I jumped on it.

Part of my reason for doing it was to be the guinea pig. The other part is I'm just fucking tired of changing CV's.

None of us know for sure that the stub will break. It's a very educated guess but it's still a guess. Let me wheel it for a while and see what the outcome is. If you want to get the ball rolling and send that stub to RCV I'm sure there's enough of us that would want one to justify it. The rep I spoke to from RCV's name was Josh. If you have the time and the part to get it going I'd say go for it.
 

theesotericone

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Well my dream is now my reality. RCVs are in. I also ended up needing a new battery after my little wincing adventure last month so a new AGM Odyssey is in as well. Since I've got the rest of the day off time to go break some shit.

@AssBurns I've got 4 NAPA CVs that need a new home.
 

AssBurns

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Well my dream is now my reality. RCVs are in. I also ended up needing a new battery after my little wincing adventure last month so a new AGM Odyssey is in as well. Since I've got the rest of the day off time to go break some shit.

@AssBurns I've got 4 NAPA CVs that need a new home.
Awesome to hear they are in!! Now where are those PBR's? (Tires of course ;))

Oooh! More CV's for me to break!! Bring em down when you come to tub your firewall. :beerscheers:
 

theesotericone

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Awesome to hear they are in!! Now where are those PBR's? (Tires of course ;))

Oooh! More CV's for me to break!! Bring em down when you come to tub your firewall. :beerscheers:

I called Pit Bull Monday. It's gonna be at least 2 more weeks till I see the tires. Probably more like 3. As soon as they get here you'll here about it. lol

I'd be more than happy to trade you those CV's for some tubbing. When you rotated your battery tray to clear the tubbing did you have to extend any wiring? All my aftermarket wiring is mounted on the driver fender. I'm sure it's high enough to clear but I might end up redoing it. There's also the option of doing the charcoal can delete. You should post that here as well. It's good info.
 

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Im interested to see how those pitbulls do on your truck. My friend has them on his 40 and they're terrible. Ride like total ass on road, are super loud which is to be expected, and I haven't been terribly impressed with them offroad either. Everyone I've talked to with them says they're too stiff and it takes forever for the carcass to break in.
 

theesotericone

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Im interested to see how those pitbulls do on your truck. My friend has them on his 40 and they're terrible. Ride like total ass on road, are super loud which is to be expected, and I haven't been terribly impressed with them offroad either. Everyone I've talked to with them says they're too stiff and it takes forever for the carcass to break in.

Bias or radial? I've heard complaints about ride quality with bias but that's to be expected. I went with radial. Once they're on I'll be sure to report back both positive and negative results.

I'm on the fence about keeping my Ridge Grapplers. I could sell them to recoup some cost. Or I could keep them and buy another set of rims thereby incurring more cost. It's probably gonna come down to a coin toss. lol
 

Theblackflag

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So since I have a spare laying around I went ahead and pulled the ADD system apart as far as I could without a lot of work to take a more in-depth look at it.

So here's the overall system. Moving from left to right we have...
The ADD stub shaft (also known as intermediate shaft No. 1 in the Toyota parts catalog)
The ADD locking collar (this is what allows for the part time 4wd function on these trucks, depending on what year they were either electronic or vacuum operated, mine be a 98 is vacuum operated.)
ADD actuator housing, top, and the actuator itself, bottom
Axle side intermediate shaft (intermediate shaft No2 in the Toyota catalog.)
ADD tube that then carries the intermediate shaft out to where the CV itself interfaces.
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/2cytjVt " title="IMAG0654"><img src="https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1916/45656076541_0da68f0572_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMAG0654"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So now the measurements. We have seen on other peoples rigs in the past, Dirtco running Lotus shafts and Big Fish All Day running stock shafts, and myself running stock shafts, that the stub shaft is the next glaring weak link. This stub shaft is also the same size as the CV stub that goes into the diff.

1.100 inch diameter measured on the outside of the splines. We know this has been improved on the RCV CVs by being replaced with 300M steel vs whatever alloy the factory used
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/2ctZe37 " title="IMAG0655"><img src="https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1930/45605327622_6ea2c7746f_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMAG0655"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

On the Opposite side where the ADD locking collar engages. You can also see a large portion of the stub is gun drilled to allow for the locating bearing and shaft that keeps the shaft centered when the ADD is disengaged.
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/QqzVSo " title="IMAG0656"><img src="https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1933/31783340678_2be1e864e7_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMAG0656"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

An interesting thing I noticed about both of Dirtcos failures was that shaft appeared to shear at the same spot where the gun drilling stopped and right at the edge of the splines. To me, this indicates a possible structural flaw due to the contours of the splines combined with the gun drilling there that is causing a stress concentration. Or it could just be at the outer limit of the material itself and it isn't capable of supporting the load. These pictures are from his most recent failure

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/21eaqfz " title="IMG_4879"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4553/38217644581_a7487091b1_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMG_4879"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/Z9m1Ho " title="IMG_4885"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4573/37506772384_c63369915b_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="IMG_4885"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So now the ADD locking collar. Pretty basic here and it measures out to have plenty of spline engagement and spline thickness IMO. I would highly doubt this as being the next failure point after the stub shaft. Unless it somehow cracked clean through essentially exploding the entire collar.
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/29MNzqh " title="IMAG0657"><img src="https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1959/43837876580_75ed430dd6_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMAG0657"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

After the ADD collar is the outer intermediate shaft. This shaft is substantially larger in diameter than the stub shaft and it carries this diameter all the way out to where the CV locks into it. I don't see this being much of a concern either since it is not gun drilled which increases the strength some, and is also much larger in diameter. Will it fail? at some point, yes, but most likely not in our use cases
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/2cytgA2 " title="IMAG0660"><img src="https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1919/45656065321_3b7578d0e6_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMAG0660"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Just after the splines on intermediate shaft No 2.
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href=" https://flic.kr/p/2baCGwM " title="IMAG0663"><img src="https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1939/44741269065_355be45891_b.jpg" width="768" height="1024" alt="IMAG0663"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

After seeing these measurements I think there is a strong likely hood the stub shaft is the bottom of the rabbit hole. After that, you will be either breaking the second intermediate shaft, ADD collar, or R&P. But again I don't see either of these failing even with dual cases, 35s, and a front locker on, and if it gets to the point where the R&P is blowing I don't think there's anything to do there. Part of it too is just being very selective about the front locker use. I don't know if you guys are buying shitty replacements, just turning the locker on and thrashing, or what but even considering the terrain your guys have been wheeling lately and the vehicles involved the breakage seems excessive. @theesotericone at this point I can guarantee you will break that stub shaft. Will it happen immediately, no, but its just a matter of time. Shit I started twisting the splines on mine with 265s and an open diff. I am going to reach out to RCV at some point this weak hopefully and see what they say about making a 300M or 4340 stub shaft with.
 
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